The Hope Matrix

Episode 28: Hope After a Heart Transplant, featuring Jonathan Bogner

• Kathryn Goetzke

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Join us for an inspiring conversation with film producer, entrepreneur, and managing partner of Level 2 Partners LLC, Jonathan Bogner. In this episode, we explore the profound impact of hope on mental well-being and practical ways to foster positivity through Jonathan's incredible story. He has applied the Shine Hope framework to recover from his journey, demonstrating Shine Hope in action.

Kathryn and Jonathan discuss the importance of hope, resilience, and optimism in overcoming personal challenges. Jonathan shares his remarkable recovery journey after a health crisis, emphasizing the need to manage negative emotions like anger and depression. They also highlight the power of personal stories for teaching and learning.

You'll discover how mindset and self-awareness contribute to personal growth, and explore the significance of community and connections in building resilience. Get actionable tips on integrating hope into your life, including strategies for building supportive social networks and managing stress effectively.

Jonathan Bogner is a remarkable individual with a heroic and inspirational life story. He was a successful reality TV and feature film producer and an entrepreneur with multiple businesses www.bognerentertainmentinc.com.In 2008, he suffered heart failure, two massive strokes, and lost the ability to speak (a condition referred to as aphasia).  


Jonathan's resilience and determination helped him recover, along with a cardio defibrillator (ICD) implanted in his chest. At a moment's notice, that will SHOCK him back to life, all the while producing reality shows and movies. But the journey didn't stop there, for he had to face another life-altering moment in 2022 when he had a heart transplant. His tenacity and sense of humor carried him through these extraordinary experiences.


Join us as we delve into Jonathan's journey—from its impact on his mental health to his rehabilitation and reinvention—and explore his philosophy on surviving life's challenges with a positive outlook.

Check out his work:

This is Kathryn Goetzke, host of The Hope Matrix podcast. We are here to share science, stories and strategies for how to hope. I'm the Chief Hope officer of the Shine Hope Company. And SHINE is the mnemonic for how we teach hope. So when we talk about hope, we talk about how we use Stress Skills, Happiness habits, Inspired Actions, Nourishing Networks and Eliminating Challenges which are thinking patterns that get in the way of our ability to hope. Hope is a skill. You can measure hope, you can teach hope and you can start practicing skills to activate higher hope in your life today. And on this Hope Matrix podcast, we aim to bring in guests, experts in science, people with stories, and those that have strategies for activating hope in your life. Hello, listeners. This is Kathryn Goetzke, host of The Hope matrix Podcast. And it's super special for me today to have, with us, Jonathan Bogner, who has quite the story that I will have him share a bit. I met Jonathan back when I was working in my other company, In The Mood Factory, and, got an Elevator Pitch show and pitched my company there, and he was on the journey. And I've since transitioned to Hope, which we'll get a little bit into. But he is here today, to share to his own experience, a challenge, a massive health challenge that he'll talk about, and his journey to healing. And I, you know, have seen him for the first time in a very long time. And I must say, Jonathan, welcome. And you're actually looking pretty amazing for, you know, well, thank you, thank you. I feel amazing. Yeah. Wow. It's incredible. So let's start first with the story. Why don't you share with us? Yeah, yeah. So we met and I looked at the date 2017. Oh, okay. I think I was pretty sick while I was producing Entrepreneur Elevator Pitch. Yeah. You auditioned, and I got you on the show, and you pitch to, the judges, and I liked you, and I liked, the person that recommended you, too, and, unfortunately, I got all the stuff that you sent me and you're doing, I thought you're on the border of a breaking through. When we met, I didn't broadcast it, but I had, I had a, I had a, 16 years ago, I had, an incident. And the incident was I had two strokes, heart failure and aphasia. So I was producing movies, sold my movie at Sundance, came back, and, you know, crisis happened, and I really couldn't talk for a year, and I adjusted to all the disabilities of being, having a stroke. And I don't think I had a lot of disabilities. And clearly, when I met you, I had a defib in my heart, you know, that would shock my heart. And no one knew about it. So I reinvented myself into a reality producer. We produced, 12 reality shows, and then, then we kind of went on, and I got increasingly sicker, and ultimately was listed on the heart transplant list. And I, about 18 months ago, my clock rang because I had really I had a ticking time bomb in my chest, and that defib went off eight times. The last time it went off, it was back to back, shocks. And it was, you know, it was like, touch-and-go, if I was going to make it, and I was in the hospital for 30 days, and they offered me. Well, they didn't offer, I got that, you know, call,

we've got a heart for you, at like, 3:

00 in the morning. And then I realized, or they, they told me the cardiologist, it's a woman's heart. And I thought, that's kind of cool. That's kind of cool. I was expecting a man's heart, but based on my size and, you know, all the details. Meaning blood. You know, we were compatible with the blood, but I'm not a big guy, so, and so, and I got a woman's heart. It was, I don't know if anyone has, research getting a heart transplant, but it's, I don't know if I want to wish that on anyone, but it was a life altering moment. The build up, getting the heart and and and then recovering from the heart. And I actually trying to get the heart because I knew I was going to get a heart. And I want it to be dead in order to get the heart. Because when I get the heart, I was going to, you know, I was dropped down to 100 pounds. So, I lost, you know, 30% of my body weight. So moving on, I have recovered and I'm talking to you, and I want to kind of talk about, you know, how I recovered and I developed my own philosophy about life because getting a woman's heart, people said, you know, what is the big difference? Well, there's there's there's biological differences. woman's heart is a little smaller. that's the downside. But the upside is they're, they deal with pain, both physical pain and emotional pain very differently than a man's heart. So, am I, you know, do I feel more empathetic? I go, I think I'm more empathetic, going through this experience and especially getting a woman's heart, do I have memories? They always say that,“The heart remembers,” You know, there's muscular memory. I have not changed what I eat. I have not changed the things that I do regularly. But I think there are different changes that I've experienced getting the heart transplant. And so what would I do? What I've done is kind of evolve to kind of having a philosophy. And the philosophy is, it's called rigorous optimism because you're not always optimistic. Sometimes it's hard and you have to wake up every day is a different day. And, you know, it's almost like, you don't know what life has in store for you. And most of the time, it's the same day, you know. It's kind of like, Groundhog's because we all have a routine, and I really value my routine, and I don't like to change my routine. Even though you have opportunities. Talking to you is an opportunity. So you change your routine. But I practice rigorous optimism. And then I want to be relentlessly alive talking to you. By the way, you were beautiful. Nice to see. So good to see you. I mean, I'm looking across at you and you have a new heart. Yeah. You know. Yeah. That's amazing. It is. It is the, you know, I mean, the scars that you have both physical and emotional scars you know, you can see the physical scars, you know, and I'm not taking my shirt off, but I'm saying you can see the physical scars, but the challenging thing is, I remember when my doctor, my cardiologist, said to me, you know, I was like, hooked up to four IVs. And then he said to me, “Well, we have to take you off the IVs. In order to justify that you need the heart.” I'm like four IVs. I can't get out of bed. I can't even go to the the chair. I couldn't even walk five feet. And it's like, “Are you kidding me?”And he said, “Well, that's how we determine”, he said, “I'm gonna make you sicker, to make you better.” and I think that, America Medical System operates, you have to be so sick to get an organ. And people that get organs, they're all, they're all lucky. They're very lucky because there's any one day there's anywhere, you know, from 100, 150,000 people needing an organ, you know, especially with a heart they're only giving out or they're, the people who donate those hearts, there's only 3500 hearts to go around. And let's just say there's 10,000 people waiting. I don't know what happens to the other thousands, probably. You know, maybe they not, I don't know. But going back to, being relentlessly alive, you have to focus on the moment. So, you know, and people are always thinking about the past. What have I done wrong in my past that guides me to my present day predictable? Okay. Thinking about the past does not help because the past is the past, you know, and thinking about the future you don't know because life can change in one inch and you walk about your house, you go out on the street and and you can just get run over. You could get so many things that could go wrong. Just focus on the moment. So I try to focus on being relentlessly alive. And then you have to have this resilience. You have to be resilient in the sense that you know good things, bad things. You know, you just want, you know, it's like, you know, I no, I'm using a golf analogy, but I don't play golf. so it's like, you know, you want to be par for the course. You know, sometimes you'll be over sometimes you’ll be under, but you really kind of want in the middle. So, you know, you have to be resilient because life throws you all different types of situations. So, whether you're in the Midwest, whether you're in California, whether East Coast, I mean, everyone knows that life you have to be resilient and get through it because tomorrow will be another day. And if you get through things, then you have to be resilient in your life. So that's kind of like, my philosophy and it really parallels what, your philosophy with hope is very similar. Yeah, absolutely. And it's something you have to practice and be intentional about learning and unlearn the skills around, you know we're not taught how to hope. And so and you know absolutely the the thinking of the past and the future. We talk about that as Eliminating Challenges or E in Shine Hope, rumination is when you go over and over and over or something in the back in the past that's negative and and worrying is worrying about the future. And, that's a challenge to hope. You know, it's hard to stay hopeful when you're constantly in that state. And so it's funny because The Mood Factory was about sensory engagement and learning how to get into the present moment and enjoy that present moment. So that's you know, what you're talking about. We were talking a little earlier about how I got veered off The Mood Factory. You know, I was pitching retailers on the scent line, had put the light bulbs to the side for various reasons, one of them being research around colored lighting. And I wanted evidence based products for getting engaged in the present moment. And meanwhile had the nonprofit and was doing work around schools and teaching hope is a skill and hopelessness being the single, consistent predictor of suicide. We were able to publish research that you could actually Teach Hope, and hopelessness isn't only the single consistent predictor of suicide, it's also the single predictor of violence. and, you know, we do so much in violence prevention and suicide prevention at a time of crisis and, you know, after the fact and like you say, about people getting sicker, I mean, just really waiting way too late. And if hopelessness is the single consistent predictor, why aren't we teaching people what is hopelessness and how do you get to hope? And so I put The Mood Factory to the side, and I ended up creating another company called The Shine Hope Company, because I believe it's so critical to teach these skills, and especially with what we're seeing right now around violence and around mental health of youth and anxiety and depression, hopelessness being the primary symptom. And so creating that Shine Hope Framework and believe as you alluded to, that when we deal with challenges in life, I call it Cultivating Hopeful Mindsets. We have to have a Hopeful Mindset around it, and we have to be proactive about the skills and the things we're doing and practicing to get us back to hope so that we don't fall into clinical anxiety and depression. And so to me, that's what's so incredible about what you've been through and how well you are right now. I mean, it's extraordinary really. Well, I mean, hope has been a big part of my life. And I didn't realize that your mission is hope, because hope is one of those amorphous things. It's like, do I, am I reading a book that *inaudible* You know, the research tells me to be hopeful. Hopeful is almost like a, something that people don't realize that they're born with. And you're born with it because life generates hope in a weird way. So everyone knows about being hopeful just the same way that we're all born with rhythm and because. Are we all born with rhythm? We are. It was the mothers, the heartbeat hears first into the womb because I did a whole series of, videos. In the old days. It was called, “Kids Make Music.” and, you know, so Kids Make Music was premised on the fact that we're born musically inclined, right? You can bang a drum. So because that's the heartbeat. So hope should be also taught, and I think it's you're doing, you know, it's a big mountain to climb, and you're starting because I think the world needs hope. And it should be taught as, almost like a core curriculum. Curriculum? Yes. Math. Quotes like, you have to have a class in hope. And it's like, well, that's not math. Okay, well, it's not English. No, it's not math. Is it humanities? Yeah. Yeah, it's being human. It's being human. And so you have to have hope that you're going to have a better life or you're going to change your life in any way possible. So I think what you're trying to do is, is admirable, and I'd love to be part of it. And I think what I know to be true is I have changed my life. Because if you can change your mind, you can change your life. and so I feel like I changed my life because I was looking, doing podcast with, with you or other people, and I'm just, I feel like I'm a professional. Yeah. So I don't want to take the burden that you have taken on of finding and cultivating and curating all these people and hope you're going to get someone that is really, you know, good or exciting. I want to be a guest. But at the same time, what I've learned is, I was looking to have a platform in order to speak. Right.

And you do everything:

you write, you speak, you're a lecturer. based on my, you know, my I would say my health, I'm much more circumspect about traveling and speaking but podcasts are great and talking to you is great. So you know I can control those elements. But what I'm going to say was that, when you have hope, the world looks better. And when you have, feelings of you have no hope. And I was, working with the police department, and you look at these jails and you look at these people who are homeless, and you look at these people who have no money, and what separates them from this downward spiral. And I think it's convincing them that there is hope because I was, you know, I had suicidal thoughts, I had depression, and you have to fight those demons, deep within yourself, it will come out the other side. And so it's a constant that's why I say it's rigorous. Rigorous. you have to constantly fight those negative thoughts. You have to constantly try to make that, you have to get some skills in. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's all about skills. I mean, hope is all about learning and practicing and cultivating these skills. And I love what you said about you're born with hope because there's, you know, debater on that. And I think you're right. I think hope is sucked out of us. You know, life can suck it out of us and we can learn how to be hopeless and we need and must be taught how to hope because it impacts everything. I mean, the science of hope is compelling. So I don't know if you know that you can measure hope. So there's hope scales and these are validated scales is looked at in science. And it predicts how long you live, how quickly you recover from diseases, heart ache, heart transplants, so you must be pretty high and hope. How well you do in school, your sports, your sports performance, more so than your abilities, your hopes for is going to predict this. if you graduate college, if you stay in college, all of these things. And it's a protective factor for anxiety and depression. So the higher we can get you on your hope score, the better. All of these things are going to turn out, and come out for you. And so to me, it's so important to teach these skills and I look at places like jails or the homeless or inner city youth, this is why I do that podcast, because I've talked to addicts that were homeless, that got themselves out of it into a life that they love. And it's always around using the hope skills. I mean, it comes down to how they've applied these skills to their life to step by step by step, kind of get out of it. And so I believe anyone, in any circumstance can move forward, but not unless we teach them these skills, you know. And so yeah, I want to echo what you're saying, when you said when you're, you're born with hope, and I think by ten years old that your situation, your environment, you know, have sucked out all the imagination you have because you when you, when you're born in the first couple years, you know, your imagination takes you to places that you never dreamed possible. So your imagination and then your whole being that life will work for you. And so you're inundated with people who have no hope, because surrounded with people who have no hope. And you have to kind of educate yourself to be hopeful, even though the people around you have no hope. And, and I think it's endemic that, that we have to kind of re-learn the skills that we're all born with and hope, imagination. Again, I would say they get sucked out based on your environment and how do we change hope. And it's it's it's a skill. It's a skill that you have to learn as a child. Right. Yeah. Because I don't know if we can help. You know, we can always try to help people who have no hope but it's hard. Yeah. It's like you have no hope, and and there's people who are homeless because they want to be homeless there. Well, I'm in probably a small but small percentage of. I mean, I think it's it goes way deeper than that. So. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I believe you can teach hope at any age. I think it's a lot. Well, we know that you can. We just published research on a college course we have and it's a lot easier to teach it when they're young because they kind of take it in. They're like, “Oh, that makes sense.” There's an interesting study with young kids, like, I think five year olds or something, and they're watching their caregivers play a game and half the caregivers give up early on the game, and those kids learn the kids that see giving up, that they give up, they give up earlier because they witnessed that. And so and that's just a small way of how we learn hopelessness. But it's that, you know, despair and angry or frustrated or sad or whatever, and then helpless to do anything about it. And it can be, you know, as simple as a game that week. And then we start practicing that. We give up early. We don't do the things we, you know, and it becomes a pattern. And that's how we live. And and so yeah, I mean I'm now on a pretty I'm, I want to everyone everywhere in the world to be taught how to hope. Right. And and and you know, you're, you're you're doing it one step at a time. That's right. Well it's a building block. It is. And and again part of it. But you are a part of it I feel. Yeah. Hope and what I have gone through because who would want , you know, if you look at my health history. What I have. Right. Yeah. And you're like, man, it couldn't be any worse. I mean, you know, two strokes, heart failure, aphasia. My pulmonary edema, the heart mechanism was 12%. When I got the heart, it was 9%. The pumping of the heart. You're technically dead, right? I had a defib that shocked me back to life, so it's like there's no oxygen to the brain. That's it. That's a definition of death. Eight times. And by the way, Salman Rushdie said, and I, I totally agree with him. When you die, there is no like, pearly Gates and there's singing choirs to usher you in. You're dead, you're dead. And so, so, you know, I don't want to cast, negative vibe, but, you know, you should live for the moment. Yeah. So, the alternate version is if you live life and I have to live life because I have again got a new heart, doesn’t mean I'm going to have a natural life. So, every day is a gift. and so there I will experience other difficulties with getting a heart. It's an organ that you were not born with, right. Think about it. So it's a transplanted organ. It sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work. That and I have to conduct my life that, you know, this is the moment that I want to experience. That's why I'm doing personal stories. I want to interview people, you know, who have these, amazing stories that they have survived from, and you can't survive if you don't have hope. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So hope runs through everything. And it's for me, I think it's almost like a will to survive. a will to survive equals hope. Yeah, yeah. So if you're not hopeful, you give up. Just like the kids in the game. Absolutely. If you give up to, you know, there's an old, saying, “If you want to be successful in the entertainment business and you're an actor and actress and there's an agent, in order to get through that door, you have to get a part.” So you're waiting in a waiting room, and there's 20 people in that waiting room, and most of them, like, 80%, they have been told, oh, well, it's going to be an hour. It's going to be five hours. It's going to be a day. You know, at the end of the journey, you know, there's two people in the waiting room saying like, hey, I've been here 24 hours, you know, when is that door going to open? So another week goes by. There's only one person in that room, and that door opens next up for success. Next up. So it's almost like you have to practice being hopeful in order to stay in the room. And you just can't give up. And I think these kids, because that's what you want to focus on. Even though you said to me that you can teach hope at any age. Well, if you teach kids early enough, and they develop those skills to be popular and not everyone is going to be the best quarterback. Not every everyone is going to be the best tennis player, basketball player. Because to be a basketball player, it requires that you have to be over 6’2”, 6’5”. You know, being a basketball player, you can play basketball throughout your high school, possibly college. But whether you're going to make it to the pros or not, same thing. There is a natural selection based on physical ability, but, you have gone through your journey, you're alive, and then you have been hopeful and, you know, hope you will have other opportunity to make different decisions if playing football is not for you. Yeah. And your ability to pivot in that and to re goal and to hope for something else. I mean that's you know we teach not to get attached to outcomes and hope. And that's an important part of it because when we become attached to outcomes and we want to be that basketball player, and then if we can't be that basketball player, but we're attached to that, of course you're going to be hopeless, you're going to feel despair, and you're going to feel helpless. But if you want to do that, let's just play this step. Yeah, let's do it. Do it. So if you're a basketball player and you're not tall enough to be a professional basketball player, there's so many jobs in basketball that, hey, you know what? I know how to play basketball. I was only five six. Probably not going to make it. But you know what? I can be a coach. I can be a trainer, you know? So there's so many ancillary things that you could do if you really love that sport. Yeah. Same thing with life. You know, you can, as you said, pivot. And you know, you don't have to know exactly what you're going to do. You not born and you had a job lined up because your father and your grandfather started a company and that you just segway into it, right? people that worked because they like what their parents or grandfather created. They love it. Okay. Most people don't because freedom of choice. Hey I'm an individual I want to have I have a choice. I want to take my own way, to be successful and success is also a misnomer. You can be successful in your personal life. You can be successful based on your friends. You can be successful in business, you know? So I think we gauge success about money. Yeah. Oh, for sure. So if you're successful, you have a lot of money guaranteed. They don't worry about money if you're a billionaire. Guaranteed. But they have all the other issues. You know, they have health issues, They've got, you know, family issues. So there's so many other things. Yeah. They're richer than you. Yeah. Yeah. So let's say there's not a billionaire. So yeah. How can you be successful? You can be successful in a lot of other ways. Yeah. Like living in the present moment. Living in the present moment. That is a major win. Like if you can learn to live in the present moment just to be here and enjoying the moment for what it is, I think that is, we teach kids about that. It's enjoying the journey, the success is about and learning how to enjoy the journey to wherever we're going, and knowing it's going to change, and there's plenty of research around. We need a certain amount of money to live and to be happy. And then above that threshold, it's, you know, it doesn't . You're going back to, living in the moment, and, at being successful, you can be successful based on other non-monetary things. but in order to live in the moment, you will see the future because you can't just, like, give up. You can't give up on hope. You you need to live in order to see the future. How do you live in the moment in order to see the future. So we don't know because life is a journey and everyone knows it's a journey. And everyone in, everyone in the whole planet was like trillions has a personal story. And whether it's and it's important to you, it's important to your parents and your siblings, whether it's important to everyone else. I don't know. Well, here's where I think it is important. So and this is why I want to get back into your story and the skills you use to navigate your way through it. Because I'm sure it wasn't all easy, you know? yeah, I know that it wasn't. But, I mean, our stories are important if we use it to teach other people and make the path easier for them, I think. And that's my big goal, is to share specific strategies around stories so people can spend less time in the muck, making the bad choices and decisions, and more learning from people that have gone through it successfully. Which is, you know, why to me, it's so important that you're sharing your story. but then also the strategies. So I start with Stress Skills. Just because, that's when we look at hopelessness and persistent hopelessness is the problem when it becomes a challenge because we all experience moments of hopelessness all the time, really, it's pretty normal. And so it's but you look at that emotional despair we feel, so you feel sad or angry or afraid. So I'm sure you've felt those some all the time, like, what was that like for you going through your, I guess, the diagnosis and then waiting for a heart transplant and then recovering. How did you manage the stress of that? You know, sometimes you you don't think, I have to go back in time to think through*inaudible* I had plenty of these moments of depression, and I would say, “Why me?” Because you have all that, especially with health issues, you think about why me? And then I concluded. It's random. So if you believe, which I do in the random randomness, there is, you know, there was no pre ordained, that I would have, I was going to get a new heart. Right. It's not written. There's no rules of engagement. I believe that it's the randomness. So why? Why me? Yeah, I went through those issues. Why me? But I just came out like that. That now defines me. So if you look at my story, my story is, in the beginning, I wanted to be in the entertainment business. In the beginning, I did anything that possible to further my career. And then I was going on a path, and from movies to reality to documentaries. So I was going on this path and then boom, life got in the way, or my health got in the way. And so I always put it into like,“Why me?” This happened to me just, move on with it. And that that's a big challenge to, to comprehend, like, because most people like, “Why me? Why did this happen to me?” And they just go down into that rabbit hole and feel sorry for themselves and they just can't get out of it, and some people, choose drugs. Some people do whatever their way. Violence. So why me? So I was always physically active meaning I got my endorphins my like so working out and in health was a way out for me when I was working out. And I'm not like a huge person, but I love working out and that kind of got me out of that pump where it's like, why me? So you get out that“Why me?” You get out of those suicidal thoughts. Why? Why should I live? Why should I? Why don't I kill myself? Well, I mean, anyone can kill themselves. Anyone. And I was, you can see all the time people who want to kill themselves, and they forced police to shoot them, or they force with the drugs that they're on or, there's lots of ways that you can initiate. You're killing yourself or you can do it yourself. So, I think that's sad. Okay. I just want to interject that if you're having any kind of suicidal thoughts, there's a 988 crisis hotline that's super important to be aware of and to know, to call. And also a crisis text line, that you can text. So I mean, suicidal thoughts are normal. What we know about though, people don't want to die, what they want is their pain to end. And so that's around I mean, and that's why it's important when you when you look at hopelessness, emotional despair and a sense of helplessness to do anything about it, you can go down those rabbit holes. But we know, I mean, there is a, there's some work around the Golden Gate Bridge. The first thing people think when they jump off, they've talked to suicide survivors.“I wish I didn't do that.” Fundamentally, we don't want to die, right? And we want our pain, we want our despair to end, and we want to feel like we have power around it. And that's what hopelessness is, despair and helplessness, that we can't do anything about it. So what I'm trying to dig into is your emotional to see your sadness. How did you manage your sadness? Like, did you cry like mourn? I mean, so you know, all the things you said, “Do I cry?” I used to cry. a drop of a hat. You know, which sounds so cliche. I cried a lot when I got the heart because me getting the heart was such, like a relief. Because one, you get more oxygen to your brain, and I was much more alive than I was when I had my failing heart. Because it's the heart is pumping throughout your body, and the brain is not getting enough oxygen, right? And so you get these suicidal thoughts, you get, thoughts of despair. So when I got the heart, I was so relieved and I cried a lot. 18 months later, I probably cry, occasionally, you know, occasionally. And, that's not to say I don't have regrets. And that's not to say I don’t have grief, but I manage those emotions, and I don't cry nearly as much. I know I'm much more compassionate, today than I was before. And so, your questions were, “How do I manage those, the despair?” I mean, my argument for hopelessness is you can always manage your emotional despair. You always can. So we don't want to die. Suicidal ideations aren't about wanting to die. They're about we're experiencing hopelessness. So we have this emotional despair, and we have a sense of hopelessness to do anything about it. You can always manage your emotional despair, and you can always get from helplessness to some kind of action. It may not be what you I mean, I wanted my dad back. I couldn't bring my dad back. So I had to move from helplessness to, you know, I had to learn how to hope for different things other than having my dad here. But it's learning. It's being taught these skills. And so, the question is around, your sadness, your anger, your fear that that's what emotional despair is. Yeah. I was very, angry. Yeah. And I have not, I don't use drugs, so I don't really drink. I love a cocktail, but I'm not an active drinker. I'm not an active drug user. I never got on pain meds that I needed, like, you know, oxy, you know? So I was very fortunate. But if you get on those that downward spiral and you have to re-learn to be hopeful. All right. That is not my journey. So what did you do? How did you manage your anger. Got to the gym. So you were able to exercise. Well I would say back to the gym. And I walk. I walk an hour a day, and I have a dog, and so, that keeps me walking an hour a day. I exercise an hour a day. And, I love, an Apple Watch because, you know, you can one look at your kind of your heart beat, your EKG, and you can it gives you rewards. It doesn't give you a gift certificate to Amazon. That okay. You know, you get a $5 gift, right? It gives you, it shows up, “Good job.” And it's psychic reward. I love those kind of psychic rewards. Just going back to, a will to live, if you look at it, we are all aging, fast. the average age in 2030, which is only six years away, you know, we're going to have 20, 25% of Americans over 65. So we're aging and we don't want to die. So, there's a lot of 80 year old 90 year olds, running around, not literally running around, but so we don't want to die because there's a finality when you die. You don't wake up in the morning, you die. So I mean, it depends on your beliefs around death, right? Yes. Yeah, you're right. I can only talk about my experience. Yeah. Not like my experience when you die, but people want to prolong it. So what I'm saying is, you know, my mother, 90 years old, you know, her quality of life is not good. And she doesn't want to die. So it's very interesting. And,I deviate on that point because going back to being hopeless or going back to, when you set about jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge, there are some poetic feeling like jump off the Golden Gate Bridge. and I don't know what that means. But going back to hopelessness, you have to learn it early. When you don't learn it early and you have all these issues, that's why they need you to spread the word. And going back to anger, Yes. Going back to my anger, I think I get angrier more than I used to, before the heart. And I get angrier. And I'm blaming the meds I'm on. I'm taking, 30 pills a day to maintain. But I used to take 40, so it went, it didn't go up. Progress. But that's hopeful. Yeah, I looked at as a win, but, I blame the drugs I'm on. And then, if I really think through it, am I angrier? I lose patience and, maybe and I don't know if that's because of the drugs I'm on. I'm getting older, am I more impatient? I get more impatient and angrier when I can't articulate what I want to do, because, when you have aphasia, you can't express because the synapsis in my brain are making, I would say the long way around to get the words out. It doesn't appear I have any issues, but there is a deficit that I know. you know, when I get the words confused or I can't express myself and I get angry or I get angry, the people that I love. So I want to know how you manage the anger, though. Like, I want to know how you. So how do you proactively manage the anger so you're not punching someone in the face or, you know, yelling at everyone around you? Or what do you do in the moment when you're angry? Like, how do you manage through that? Okay, I don't have anger management issues. So I want to clear that up. So it's not like, well I think we all have to learn how to manage our anger, right? So I get angry and then with myself or situations. Right. So just dealing with myself. I feel I know internally when I'm getting angrier. Right. yeah. I've got a mechanism in my brain that says, okay, you're now going to cross over with the uncontrollable. And yes. Yeah. So yeah, how do I control that anger? Okay. Yeah. So there are occasions where, people do things, that you just, it's a switch, right? I know that you get in before the switch, right? I practice getting in before the switch. Yes. And we got to teach all the jails that too, all the inmate. How do I turn? I, walk away, I don't engage. Yeah, I go quiet. Yeah, it's interesting when you don't speak, the people think you're really smart, or you're total idiot. Or most of the time they think, well, for me, they think, oh, it's kind of smart. Why? Why is he not talking? I'm angry and I want to control what I'm going to say to you. Yes! And I notice a lot of people, my friends, have anger issues. And I think it's just being able to. This is almost therapy for you and me, right? Right. That's a way to express myself and and deal with those anger issues. So, yeah, I mean, that's the thing about anger. It's totally normal. And then we have all of these feelings around anger. It's how we express it that becomes a problem. And we have a physiological response when we're triggered. And when that happens, norepinephrine, adrenaline, they're flooding through our bodies. It's like that switch you talk about, right? And we teach our kids. You go in your downstairs brain, you can't think, you make really horrible decisions, right? You say horrible things. You do horrible things. So like getting in before that switch, when you can feel that switch, and then also noticing with other people when they're getting to their switch. But I mean, if we can come up with a strategy, I think, in society to teach, how do we get in before the switch and how do we make it cooler to manage that switch? You know, cooler to be able to do that than it is to react in a explosive way. And when you look, I just watched, The Jail. Did you see that jail documentary? But it's just so clear to me in the prison systems that, they're not taught the skills. They don't know the biological mechanisms of what's even happening. So there's all this blame, there's all the shame. Instead of just normalizing the conversation around anger, sadness, fear and figuring out how do we strategize together in society to, like, manage that switch? Do you think, it's the. DNA that we have inherited when we were Neanderthals. It's like the fight like. Yes. Oh, yes. Well there's five, there's five now there was kind was a new one. Now we're full. So it is. Yeah. Everyone wants to fight and then everyone. I chose the way to deal with it is you're angry. I can't. Get into your emotion. Would you actually trigger them emotionally? I would say, you're angry. I'm going to walk away. Yeah, we're going to revisit this another time. Yeah. And that, I mean, it's the more evolved brain, you're smarter. It's more evolved to do that than it is to be reactionary. And so it's how do we make it cool within all populations to be able to do that? I mean, so many people get ridiculed for it walking away, the name calling, all of that. But that's really the evolved way to handle conflict. If you notice, your biological mechanism is going out of control, you know, because of that adrenaline and cortisol, norepinephrine, we can't problem solve. We're not going to have a constructive conversation. You know, it was I was doing this class, and it ended last night and, it was a scenarios where you had to deal with a person, who potentially would kill you or kill themselves. Most of the time, they were going to kill themselves. And what kind of class was? It's a class. Survivor? It's not a survivor class. It was dealing with the police. So how do you manage these types of issues? And 16 people, would go into and confront that individual, right? And possibly, shooting that individual. One person in this class said. There's no way out for this person, right? He's contained. I'm not going to engage and I'm going to stay out of his way until medical. Assistance or people who are, who are trained to deal with that level of anger. and it's interesting meaning most people will engage you have to stop yourself from engaging. I think that's, a really good question. Because naturally, when we want to get help or we engage, it's when you argue with people, there are higher level argument about the issue. And then there are issues where name calling. So how do you distinguish people saying,“I don't like blond haired women.” Okay? Okay. And we know you're blond. I don't know how you deal with that because I'm now challenging you not on a level of our discussion because I'm throwing out things that you can't. That's who you are, right? I think the way to de-escalate is to embrace, to say, “Oh, yeah, I'm blond, but I could change my hair color if that's the issue. I'm happy with it.” How can I just de-escalate your anger to me? So. All right. I don't really care about what you think about my blond hair. The thing is, it takes time. Yeah, it takes emotional brain power. De-escalate and talk to the person. And most of us have a very short attention span. Hence, the success of TikTok. Hence, the success of Instagram. We have nanoseconds. We get bored within 30 seconds. No, eight seconds. We're less than a goldfish now. I don't know how to overcome that because you and I are of a certain age that we were, I’m speaking for my show, or with, a computer. I was not born in the time of AI. I was born in the time of talking it out. not texting. You could talk to people because that, you know, but that engages you versus attack. So, we were born a different time. So I don't know how you deal with people who are hopeless. We, I mean, you learn the skills and I don't deal with people. I mean, I teach the skills around hope. I can't make someone hopeful. I can't tell them to do the skills. I can't, you know, people have to want to work for their hope. And you've got to work for your hope. I mean, hope is not. It's a simple construct how we teach, how to Shine Hope. So we teach Stress Skills, Happiness Habits, Inspired Actions, how to cultivate Nourishing Networks, and how to Eliminate Challenges which are thinking patterns that get in the way of hope. We teach the skills, but I can't make you hopeful, and I can't make you practice the skills. I can't make you exercise. It can't make you learn deep breathing, the 90 Second pause, all of these things. I mean, it takes intentional practice and work, you know? but there's if you look and we have our teens, we have a teen program that it's a peer to peer program. They teach it. They work with each other on hope and teach each other how to how to integrate these skills into their lives. I mean, and part of that is we have them look for a Hope Hero. So any challenge you've been through in life, you look at who has successfully overcome that and you practice that what they did, what Stress Skills they used, what Happiness Habits they cultivated, how they took Inspired Actions, how they created strong networks and social networks, and how they eliminated those thinking patterns to hope which is, someone has to go into a heart transplant or any kind of medical now they're learning from you and they're learning specifically what you did. I think the one thing we just haven't covered is the Nourishing Network part of it. How was networks important in your in your recovery? critical I think the network and I define the network. I don't know what your definition is, I mean, I read your, having, I don't know what the 5 to 1 rule is. Yeah. Five positives. Every negative you every criticism or you gotta say five positive things to a person. Positive interactions. Yeah. Yeah. actually that's good. I think I've yeah. But most people don't do that. I know one on one. So the way I define my network is my support system. And my support system was my wife, certain members of my family were disappointing and I had to deal with that. but my wife came through. One of my sons really came through. I have issues with my other son. He never came through for me, but he has his own issues with me. And I don't know what they are personally, but he has issues and I think friendships. I didn't have a community that I went to, you know, dance classes or, support group. But my community, it was really friendships that I leaned on, and they visited me, and just telling my story, got other people who have reached out to me. So I feel, close family bonds and close friendships, were really important to me. And they still are. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. I mean, they're so are the people we surround ourselves with. And I was just in a conversation earlier, if we don't have strong networks, they're a way to cultivate networks. There's always a way to find support groups, online groups. We're talking about apps to create friends. I mean, if you feel you don't have a network, that's a goal. That's something you can hope for, and you can set goals to how to kind of cultivate those strong networks because it takes work. Having good relationships takes work. I remember saying and I feel it's like rigorous you have to work to get friends. So I, and you don't want to be catfish. So. I haven’t. Right. Right. But I feel like, we're talking about, friendships and, cultivating those, it all is your ability to tell people what you think. And sometimes your thoughts are traumatic. Sometimes your thoughts are destructive. But you have to get those emotions, whether it's one of those AA, whether it's, Therapist. That's good. Yeah. Therapy. Therapy is great. Well, everything takes a person to want to make a difference. Everything, it starts with the individual to say, “Do I want to spend my life in despair, or do I want to take small, positive steps, to improve my life?” I can't account for that. But we can just give them the tools. What you're doing, and the tools are being hopeful and being again optimism is a word that everyone kind of knows. But you have to practice optimism. It's not on given I’m waking up and I'm optimistic. It's rigorous. Yeah. Absolutely and sure is. And then you have to practice being resilient because, life is not an up, it's like it's not, it's almost like a bell shaped curve, you know, and, understanding the food you put into your body. Yeah. Really, you have to have good food, you know, and happiness habit. Yeah. Nutrition, good exercise, good sleep. Putting the food into your body is everything turns into glucose. It just turns into what the body needs. And so you have, spike. Spikes, when you eat food. So you have to also understand there is a relationship with what you eat and how you feel. Yeah. And how you feel impacts how you treat other people and yourself. So you are a walking miracle, Jonathan. Thank you. I am amazed, you know, my advisor, Dr. Myron Belfer, he worked with Joseph Murray and, Joseph Murray did the first human transplant. Wow. Really amazing. Won a Nobel Prize for it. And Doctor Belfer is pretty amazing in hope. So, I'm really grateful for him. He's at Harvard. He's a Harvard catalyst. So I'll report back to Dr. Belfer. Another, I mean, another transplant. yeah. Thriver I will say. Yeah. is there any final thoughts or words you want to say before we sign off? One thought is, I want to introduce you a person who's dealing with women in New York in prison and how they find a way out. And I want to connect you with her. Awesome. My final thoughts are the same thoughts I had at the beginning of our discussion, is being optimistic, practicing optimism is rigorous and maintaining rigor in your life. It's not. You don't wake up, optimistic. You have to work at it. And just focusing on you and me in the now. You have to be relentlessly alive. Look at the things that, we have in front of us, and listen, it's better to be in America than in, what's happening in Ukraine or what's happening in the rest of the world, you know? Yes, those people have fine found, you know, moments of joy. But we're talking to people right now in the U.S., it's better to be here. And then you have to be resilient in your life. You get the ups and downs, talking to me, it's all about being resilient. You know, with my health crisis and I've gone through, 20 major issues with my health. And I continue to thrive. And continue to make, adjustments in my life, and right now, I know I've got some issues. The heart had an issue and had a virus. I inherited that virus. Right now I'm just dealing with that virus. I have issues where, my heart irregular heart beats. So I'm just dealing with that. So everyone deals with these things, but they have to manage the anger and they have to manage, Not all “Why me” Just move on. Just move on. So. Yeah. And where is your power of control? You know, where's the where's the locus of control there. How can you. Yeah. Yeah I love it. Yeah. Well thank you so much for this conversation, Jasmine. And and thank you to all the listeners for listening in. The goal is to provide you some insights, some strategies that you can use in your life or potentially share with other people. You know, we learn from other people that have gone through challenges that are successfully navigating them. They're not easy. It's not an easy path, but it's, taking those moments of hopelessness and finding our way to hope and hope is a constant practice and journey. So really appreciate you all listening in. Please feel free to share this with others as well. And Jonathan, again thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, it's been a pleasure and a joy just having just a one on one with you, as you know, has been very, made my day. Mine too. You're awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for listening into the Hope Matrix podcast. Have an amazing day. And don't forget to keep shining. So thank you all for listening in to the Hope Matrix podcast. We want to shine a light that hope is teachable. Hope is measurable and teachable and provide you with actionable insights for how you can start activating hope in your life today and provide a framework so you can start talking about hope with other people and practice these skills together because we are better with hope. Please feel free to check out theshinehopecompany.com, where we list all of our resources around how to Hope. We have a lot of free programs for how to hope, including the five day Challenge, our Hope infographic with a lot of skills that showcase how to hope and articles of how to incorporate hope in your life. We have The Hopebeat Weekly, which is a weekly newsletter that shares strategies for hope. We have a My Hope Story templates so you can write your own Hope story today. Also my Hope Hero so we can share what our heroes are doing to activate hope in their lives. And this is especially good with youth so they can start looking up to people that have overcome similar or challenges to them and seen how these heroes use the Shine Hope framework. We have a Hopeful Minds for Teens program and Hopeful minds Overview Educator Guides. We have a new evidence based college course so you can activate Hope on the college campus. There are programs in the workplace. Overview courses 90 minute courses for learning the what, why and how to hope. What I want you to know about hope is it's a skill. You’ve got to practice these skills to become hopeful. It's easy to fall into despair and helplessness when we deal with challenges in life, and it takes intentional work and practice to get to hope. And yet it is always possible. So no matter what life brings. Keep shining hope. Thanks so much for listening and have an awesome day. And of course, I’ve got to add this, that this program is designed to assist you in learning about hope should not be used for medical advice, counseling, or other health related services. iFred, The Shine Hope Company and myself, Kathryn Goetzke do not endorse or provide any medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. I am not a medical doctor. The information provided here should not be used for the diagnosis or treatment of any medical condition and cannot be substituted for the advice of physicians, license professionals or therapists who are familiar with your specific situation. Consult a licensed medical profession or call 911. If you are in need of immediate assistance and be sure to know the crisis Hotline. 988. If you are in need of support. Thanks so much for listening. Take good care of yourself and keep shining hope.